I will miss your presence at JavaOne/Oracle World. I've heard you speak many times. You are a great voice for Java and OSS.
As for me, I will be at the conference to represent Open Source Testing (OST.) My company even has a booth again this year. While I am an OSS person at heart, I believe it is better to participate than to be quiet, even if the host is threatening or malevolent.
I am really curious to see how this JavaOne comes together. Like you I attended all of the JavaOne's except the first one. I plan to write about the experience on TheServerSide and DZone as I have in past years.
I also hope that something changes in the next 4 weeks and you participate in JavaOne afterall.
@Matt - It wouldn't be a political decision, it would be a legal one. Anything that Google produces to an audience can and more than likely will be used against them by Oracle.
You know how lawyers are. If you say "good" with the wrong tone in your voice then they will turn it around that you raped someone.
Oracle = Evil Google = some what evil, but still good enough to be loved.
Oracle is so far behind the curve, not sure how they would be able to drive Java development if Google and other innovative vendors reduce their involvement...
This is just sad that two mature companies are using the Developers as pawns. I really hope the developer community wakes up and raises their voice about such abusive behavior.
@EasyShout : I don't think Google is at fault here, nor are they using the developers as pawns. They just don't wanna introduce any legal complications for themselves by attending the JavaOne. And I don't blame them for that.....
Blaming Oracle is not the reason. The reason is that allegedly you have infringed their patents and running this conference is not in your best interests at this point. You should be clear on this.
Google are not being perceived well by developers at the moment. The whole Verizon thing definitely hasn't helped but claiming to be "holier than thou" won't help either.
What Google has done for Java in mobile platform Sun can only dream of. As a server side developer I tried j2me it was just awful. Android is much cleaner and well designed . Android is giving us hope as java developers . I hope this gets resolved soon . Oracle is just helping apple and m$ in the long run.
I don't understand why Google didn't buy Sun in the first place ? Maybe now Google will get smart and buy Novell before this happens with Linux. Mean while... time to focus on Python and GO.... bye bye Java
Yeah... I was a little bummed myself that both my technical session _and_ BOF was denied this year for the presentations I submitted. I've spoken 3 times before (BOFs) about real time app & game dev with Java on the desktop and was going to present how to write one real time game that runs on desktop Java and Android from a unified codebase covering J2SE and Android issues (unfortunately a conflict w/ Oracle's current stance). I'm definitely looking towards OSCon and other conferences now to make up for not exactly being welcome per se in the Oracle JavaOne conference / world. Especially a little bummed because I'm releasing my work in question as open source imminently. Here is to the open source Java future and let's keep the light lit and burning strong.
We'd love for somebody from Google to come and speak at Open CF Summit from Feb. 21-23 2011 in Garland (Dallas), TX. OpenCF Summit is a community gathering focused exclusively on promoting free and open source software in the CFML community. While we're not anti-anything, we're a place where CFML developers can discuss open source CFML. We now have *two* CFML engines that are open source -- Railo and Open BlueDragon. So CFML is free of the proprietary chains we used to have now. We hope Google can be a part of this new community that is forming. BTW, our website -- http://www.opencfsummit.org/ -- runs on Google App Engine using Open BlueDragon for GAE runtime.
Pretty sure I've seen my last Java One too. Unfortunately, for the last several years all the value has been brought by guests, not by the host. An order of magnitude more so, now. I/O's been consistently stronger, more varied, and far more informative.
I'm not doubting the least that googles rewritten java-implementation on the android platfom is infringing some of Sun (now Oracle)s patents.
On the other hand, every single sane person who know enough about computers to tell a screen and a keyboard apart, knows that the U.S patent office, when it comes to software patents, is (at least mostly) a bunch of stupid degenerates who doesnt know an alt-key from the Ctrl-one - and these are issuing LEGALY BINDING software PATENTS. Without having ANY CLUE at ALL, about what they are doing. Therer are just so many examples to this, I wouldn't even know where to START. Let alone finish...
God, I wish they all dropped dead, along with the corrupt, non-working (never worked at all in any part of history) common law system, and then finally there might be some progress in the world. Well, on can dream...
What about future of all Engineers that work with Java on Google products? what about Companies that invested in this area, and what about GWT is that affected with this too. Just Asking :(
@Josh Any chance for a Puzzlers direct to YouTube if you had one prepared, just when JavaOne is going. Would be fun to see the numbers J1 presentations vs Puzzlers on YouTube.
Was it cancelled by Oracle, because they won't let Google talk there, or by Google, because they refuse to talk there (because of the Android lawsuit)? "...we won't be able to present at JavaOne" is embarrassingly fuzzy.
Seeing (supposedly free and open!) technology and top technologists vs. patents, politics & lawyers intertwined this way is quite sad. Getting polarized - "battle of titans" - is a sure way to damage all the parties, and it doesn't really make Google look much better than Oracle.
Due to Oracle's shenanigans,our company has dropped JBoss for the next project.Unfortunately, options provided by Oracle is just too expensive. The platform will now be .Net+mssql.
I know perfectly well that Dalvik VM and JBoss AS is apple/orange situation. But no one wants to start a project with a litigious behemoth potentially screwing things up in the middle of development.
Larry Ellison better cut his yacht trip short! This is a PR disaster! You piss off the people that make IT decisions and the next thing you know they make that move to Sequel a year earlier...
Sad to see that two giants making money over OSS innovations, battling in courts for stupid "patents"... who the help was the creator of this stupid term, "patent" ?
crybabies... oracle is not suing open source, it's suing google, a company that tried to leapfrog it's licensing responsibilities... and now, like all bad losers, is retaliating in the most childish way possible.
Oracle is the next SCO helping m$ . What oracle is doing is hurting all developers and people may decide switch platform. What makes java strong is open source contribution. Oracle 11 g is the best database but incase of java I haven't seen much from oracle, BEA has contributed a lot. Btw Paul Allen is suing internet lol and all major companies like apple , Google but not m$ is there a trend here.
About the "lawsuit against open source" part... Oracle is claiming patent infringement on (among other) parts of the platform that come from the Apache Harmony project.
That means, if Android is infringing then the ASF and by extension "the open source community" are also infringing.
You wrote, "made it impossible for us to freely share our thoughts about the future of Java and open source generally."
What about your Puzzlers talk? You don't talk about the "future of Java" and "open source" in that talk.
You're a rock star, you have to show up! Heck, I bought "Java Puzzlers" after hearing you speak at Java One some years ago. Take a week of vacation and head over to Java One. I finally got my company to send me across country for the conference this year, just hop in your car and drive up 101 for a few days :)
I have always loved Google! Oracle can kiss my ass! Google has said it beautifully: they set up for open source, learn from the community, we learn from them! I hope Oracle flies in the face!
I suggest people read John Martellaro's article at http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/exploring_oracles_lawsuit_against_google/ for an analysis of why Google is hardly innocent in this matter, and Oracle isn't destroying Java by suing Google.
As for skipping out on JavaOne, Google is playing the role of Big Baby. The Google presentations that would have been affected have little to do with any of this:
"A quick look at the JavaOne conference schedule reveals some sessions that were to be conducted by Google, including one entitled "Cloud Cover: Testing Techniques for Google App Engine," presented by Google software engineer Max Ross. Google also was to participate in a panel session entitled "Taking Java to the Sky: Cloud Computing 2010 Expert Panel," as well as another session, "High-Performance Java Servers at Google," featuring Google software engineer Dhanji Prasanna.
"Another session, "GUI Animation Rules," was set to be presented by Google UI toolkit engineers Chet Haase and Romain Guy. Google also was scheduled to conduct a session called "Weaving a Tangled Web: Threading Best Practices at Google." It was to feature Google Senior Software Engineer Jeremy Manson."
I hardly see why these presentations would be soured by this lawsuit. Grow up Google.
This is all a PR move by Google to attempt to gain sympathy from the developer community by creating a rift. Let's face it, Google ceased not being evil a long time ago, so such tactics will not play out as I suspect Google brass hope they will. Instead they'll start to look more and more like Microsoft did when they were rightfully sued by Sun in Java's early days, and also didn't show up at JavaOne, and we should all be glad as Java developers that Sun did so to keep the language from fragmenting.
You can't trust The Oracle she only tells you what you need to hear.
We moved all platforms to PostgreSQL and it is so much better than Oracle. I thought it would take a long time and be complicated and database would be slow but WOW! MySql is for wimps and Java has been so buggy for so many years I can't understand anyone using it at all. Perl -> Python is rock solid stable.
This lawsuit is frivolous because, by there own statement that thousands of developers use Java. It defies logic that they even bothered to file the suit. This brakes the confidence of thousands of developers, and they should break bonds with Java. I have uninstalled all sun product from our production line servers no more VirtualBox Sad I liked that one but VMware will do the trick. I never have liked Java in my estimation it is the biggest piece of shiet Language. Perl/Python Smokes it and C++ Rules it. Why people like it is just beyond me. Try Delphi if you want some programming power.
Oracle isn't "killing" Java. They are stealing ALL of it for themselves and forcing others to abandon it. It is typical of how proprietary software houses now "compete" against others, thanks to a corrupt Congress and USTPO.
LOTS of tools depend upon Java. Oracle now controls Java's compatibility testing. They own parts of OpenOffice. They own the best parts of MySQL. They own BerkeleyDB.
All of the GPL portion of these tools will have to be forked and the non-GPL portions reverse engineered (if it is legally possible), setting back their usefulness a few months to a few years or more. Plus, Oracle will probably ring them with easily obtained "IP" patents to inhibit FOSS coders developing them to the point that they could be come competitive again against proprietary versions.
Oracle has already made the MS Office OOo plugin require a $90 license, minimum 100 licenses, or $9,000. That plugin will cease to exist in MS Office environments, which will hurt OpenOffice on Windows. Will Office users switch to OpenOffice? I doubt it. Most will want to maximize their RIO. While some may chose to install the free OpenOffice on Windows to avoid paying for Microsoft Office, those who own Office won't.
Oracle owns APEX, their "cloud" web based app development tool. Even if it is a piece of trash, it is integrated into Oracle's DBs and many Oracle DB users will thoughtlessly adopt it and soon become unable to extract their apps from it, requiring they continue to use it or incur the expense of moving their apps to a better tool, one with lower license fees (Apex is "free" but Oracle is FAR from it), and fewer strings holding them down. Incorporating proprietary API into an app is a surefire way to get one's self locked into that vendor's licen$e upgrade treadmill.
If the Linux-SCO lawsuit is any guide, the Oracle-Google lawsuit will take 5 to 10 years to settle, and the outcome will depend almost entirely on which side can convince jury members that the other side is wrong. The looser can appeal.
Since Java is not critical to Linux and FOSS, and may not be critical to Google, I suspect that regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit there a LOT of people already making moves to switch to another glue, be it Python, Ruby, or what ever. Anything that doesn't have proprietary entanglements.
This is warning to everyone get out while you still can stop using OOO Java MySql VirtualBox ZFS backup Solaris OpenSolairs NextaOS and NextaStorage and Of Course Oracle Any thing that Oracle owns stop using it. Oh and yes Linux will take a big hit with this because OOO was the best thing it had going for it now made useless by the corp hogs. They just make crap out a lot of great software.
I can't help but think that this is all for the better in the end, because now we'll see what Google can actually do when it comes to programming language and framework design... and I have no doubts that it will be way better than Java ever was or will be.
I think Java will be around far longer than people here suggest, and I don't see this battle having an impact except for development on Android. I also think IBM will have a little to say about Java's future as well.
Overall, We feel like suing by Oracle is a good move. Voice by 'Daniel Kirkdorffer' in this thread is worth noting. Though not that hard, We support Oracle's move towards what it is doing.
@mathsadist's comment in this thread looks like the first step in google's hidden step in bringing python to life through killing java.
We always felt like Google wished to kill Java by introducing rapid response cycles through python and a heavyweight Java implementation in GAE. But businesswise, this company did well to make sure their stakeholders and shareholders feel safer. ( Ofcourse, that crash showed google the 340$ too but. ) ofcourse, we also agree this company faces stiffer competition than anything in the web. To do business as well as do 'stuff', We wished that google offer python implementation of Oracle and open source it off it slowly. That could have calmed Oracle down a bit because of the database share that uses its support.
This looks a good fight (marshal art with jet lee and bruce lee), and I wished to see this real movie.
Google, I'm proud of you, to me you're standing up for the rights of Open Source software and the Open Source Community. Oracle has made some poor decisions which affects many many people, not just those in the Open Source area. I stand behind your decision not to go.
google open source software tools to make profits, there is no return to the open source community any valuable davlink, really open source? google will have to split the java and linux kernel it? Do not be evil
"recent lawsuit against Google and open source has made it impossible for us to freely share our thoughts"
It is a lawsuit against you, not against open source. And the only reason it made it imposible for you to talk is because you are busy crying like a baby.
As a recent convert from the MS Dev Worl, it took the activities of Google, i.e. Android, App Engine , GWT,.. to get me interested in Java...hmmm... did I make the right move?
why account was disabled Today when i login my account of android market.I found the page redirect to signup page.And my apps cann't be found in the client of android market.I give money to sign up the account.Should i get any notice about that?Should i get email about that?If i do something wrong,please let me know,i will fix it.
IF this is the attitude from Oracle, I look forward to see the new A# or G# language from Google. They should take the best ideas from Java and the best from Microsoft.NET (where much was stolen from Java anyways) and combine it into a new well-formed language that is very compatible with every Google service... (ofcause)
Then release a great SQL-database (not MySQL, not Oracle, not SQL-server) that is great for Cloud-based applications but also single site (department/organisationwise) applications.
Could even let it work as a Google service in Google Apps as a "free version" - domain specific.
Then perhaps develop a better studio-system as great as VisualStudio.Net with 100% integration to write anything from .NET to JAVA and ofcause the new Google language in same environment (Go# ?? = Go Sharp?)... make it free as a "light edition" and full edition should be like $10 pr. year or the like, or make it possible to registrate as developer for a small fee and then gain access to the Google Marketplace.
Then I would call it: BYE SUN, BYE MICROSOFT, BYE ORACLE... enough of all these F**KING PATENTS you are F**KING up the future with all your lawsuits!
I am worried about this. I have bet my company on Java and open source. I am not at all pleased by this. I am worried this might be the start of the end for Java.
Oracle is killing Open Source Java and the ecosystem, that one was for sure, we could sense it since last year.
Also Java development is stagnate, It will pass more than 5 years to have a Java7 jsr!. The JCP is dead, I think Java as a tech and ecosystem it will begin to decline after all this BS.
What Google could do to Dalvik VM, Displace Java and all Java tools, Choose Javascript, Python or Google Go over Dalvik vm as a language of choice and show to Oracle that Dalvik VM != JVM in court.
Or an alternative is improve the NDK of Android and let developers program android in C and C++, Anyway apple Iphone they use C and Object-C all is native development.
The next 4 official Google languages I guess will be: C++, Python, GO and Javascript.
Me personally Im going back to C++ and use Python and Javascript, If Google Go gets more love and mature, for sure I will include it on my toolbox.
if(ORACLE == SHIT){ GOOGlE!=SHIT; }else{ while(ORACLE==SHIT) ALLSHIT++; } why account was disabled Today when i login my account of android market.I found the page redirect to signup page.And my apps cann't be found in the client of android market.I give money to sign up the account.Should i get any notice about that?Should i get email about that?If i do something wrong,please let me know,i will fix it.
why account was disabled Today when i login my account of android market.I found the page redirect to signup page.And my apps cann't be found in the client of android market.I give $25 money to sign up the account.Should i get any notice about that?Should i get email about that?If i do something wrong,please let me know,i will fix it.
I have always liked Google, but Google do this very badly. Would like to split Java, also every time What if the Java virtual machine is not compatible, Java also how to do Write once, run anywhere? Oracle's right on this issue, being taken advantage of dry matter, Sun has become history. Google has the ability to do with Java, or put into the virtual machine, and we all compatible, IBM, HP and Sun's JVM is compatible, head of long horn on your Google different?
Yes, I also think that Google needs to maintain its own language, not proprietary Java but maybe Python - very much people love it and it's free and open source
Oh, so because Google did something that may be wrong, you think that somebody should punish them even if that party also is not the rightful heir of the money?
You my friend are very naive. Oracle does not deserve one red cent of that money. They did not develop Java. They had nothing to to with the idea. They are Johny come lately, a thief in the night if you will.
I don't give a cr** if Google did something that might have been in violation of the patent. It was done before Oracle owned it and therefore should have been pursued to the fullest extent by Sun at the time, since Sun did not Oracle needs to sit on it. That is why grandfather clauses are written into laws.
I am telling you that if the court does not laugh at Oracle and throw this out of court, I will be laughing and doing it for them. I will no longer recommend OpenOffice to ANYONE. I will not purchase a product form Oracle and I will not work for a company that uses ANY of Oracle's products.
So they may win a short round, but in the end I hope Oracle faces the wrath of MILLIONS of users like me.
As to the legality of what Google did, a complete moot point. I could care less what your reasoning is. Oracle is wrong.
Google is actually not really doing Java a favour here. First by omitting Javas principle of binary compatibility - next by creating uncertainty in the community!
A bit dissapointed by Google - even more so than Oracle.
bummer
ReplyDeleteThat is sad :(
ReplyDeleteGoogle should come to speak at DrupalCon 2011 in Chicago
ReplyDeleteBummer Indeed.
ReplyDelete:(
ReplyDeleteReally???
Very Very Sad
ReplyDeleteIs this purely a political decision because of Oracle being a pain?
ReplyDeletesad sad sad
ReplyDeleteHi Josh:
ReplyDeleteI will miss your presence at JavaOne/Oracle World. I've heard you speak many times. You are a great voice for Java and OSS.
As for me, I will be at the conference to represent Open Source Testing (OST.) My company even has a booth again this year. While I am an OSS person at heart, I believe it is better to participate than to be quiet, even if the host is threatening or malevolent.
I am really curious to see how this JavaOne comes together. Like you I attended all of the JavaOne's except the first one. I plan to write about the experience on TheServerSide and DZone as I have in past years.
I also hope that something changes in the next 4 weeks and you participate in JavaOne afterall.
-Frank Cohen
http://www.PushToTest.com
I think @timbray said it best... "Fuck Oracle"
ReplyDeleteHi Josh
ReplyDeleteHad you guys gone and presented in full force in spite of the lawsuit, you'd have sent a much stronger message.
Anyways, there's always a Google I/O ;-)
Varun
@Matt - It wouldn't be a political decision, it would be a legal one. Anything that Google produces to an audience can and more than likely will be used against them by Oracle.
ReplyDeleteYou know how lawyers are. If you say "good" with the wrong tone in your voice then they will turn it around that you raped someone.
Oracle = Evil
Google = some what evil, but still good enough to be loved.
I second what @NetworkPIMP requoted!
ReplyDeleteBig loss to JavaOne (and Oracle). Hope to see a strong Java presence at Google I/O anyway...
ReplyDeleteSucks!
ReplyDeleteWhat about a new Java centric conference by Google, just inviting all the sane contributors to the Java-Eco-System and leaving out the bad comps?
ReplyDeleteI go for "Google OneJava 2010" :).
Oracle is destroying Java...
ReplyDeleteAJAX religion is killing Google.
ReplyDeleteGood riddance!
First Google dropped CUA menus when designing the Chrome browser UI. Then you make Java Web Start impossible to use with Chrome.
Then instead of using Java for some tasks you develop "Gears". Google never liked Java, I say Good riddance!
FC
I'm so glad that Google is around and I really hope that Google will do something that will be mindblowing for the Java community....
ReplyDeleteGoogle's there for the developer's interest and not for the lawyer's....unlike Oracle...
BTW, the patent system is really screwed up...especially when I read this...http://goo.gl/voqB
Very sad but let's all keep our heads up!
ReplyDeleteOracle is so far behind the curve, not sure how they would be able to drive Java development if Google and other innovative vendors reduce their involvement...
ReplyDeleteI didn't even know one could sue open source in general.
ReplyDeleteThis is just sad that two mature companies are using the Developers as pawns. I really hope the developer community wakes up and raises their voice about such abusive behavior.
ReplyDeleteI'm very concerned about java... but I'm thinking about OOo and Mysql too.
ReplyDeletewill be these one te next yo leave open source?
@EasyShout : I don't think Google is at fault here, nor are they using the developers as pawns. They just don't wanna introduce any legal complications for themselves by attending the JavaOne. And I don't blame them for that.....
ReplyDeleteSad :(
ReplyDeleteI am guessing you guys will stop contributing to Open JDK too. Sad.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what Jonathan Swartz thinks of this whole fiasco?
ReplyDeletethanks for warning us: now I'm sure I don't want to go there anymore.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Google being painted as bunch of angels here. LEt us wait till lawsuit is settled :-)
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to believe Google is "Do No Evil". If they fiddled with JAva without permission from Sun/Oracle, they should pay the price.
Joshua, I am seriously disappointed. Your announcement stinks of politics.
:( it's a shame
ReplyDeleteBlaming Oracle is not the reason. The reason is that allegedly you have infringed their patents and running this conference is not in your best interests at this point. You should be clear on this.
ReplyDeleteGoogle are not being perceived well by developers at the moment. The whole Verizon thing definitely hasn't helped but claiming to be "holier than thou" won't help either.
A.A.A said...
ReplyDeleteI am guessing you guys will stop contributing to Open JDK too. Sad.
8/27/2010 12:30 PM
We continue to contribute to Open JDK. We are still enthusiastic supporters of the Java platform, and active members of the Java community.
Josh
Thanks for clarification Josh.
ReplyDeleteWhat Google has done for Java in mobile platform Sun can only dream of. As a server side developer I tried j2me it was just awful. Android is much cleaner and well designed . Android is giving us hope as java developers . I hope this gets resolved soon . Oracle is just helping apple and m$ in the long run.
ReplyDelete- sent from evo
How is Oracle suing open source?
ReplyDelete:( oracle I kill you!
ReplyDeleteSad, but understandable. Personally, I'd be less than saddened to see Oracle become a smoking hole.
ReplyDeleteSad indeed!! :(
ReplyDeleteWhat Oracle has done with Java seven months after it's under Oracle control ? Oracle is killing Java.
ReplyDeletemake the Python VM as good as JVM and forget Java all together :D
ReplyDeleteGoogle should write a replacement for Java/.Net, implement its own language, develop a spec, get ECMA approval, etc.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why Google didn't buy Sun in the first place ?
ReplyDeleteMaybe now Google will get smart and buy Novell before this happens with Linux.
Mean while... time to focus on Python and GO....
bye bye Java
Yeah... I was a little bummed myself that both my technical session _and_ BOF was denied this year for the presentations I submitted. I've spoken 3 times before (BOFs) about real time app & game dev with Java on the desktop and was going to present how to write one real time game that runs on desktop Java and Android from a unified codebase covering J2SE and Android issues (unfortunately a conflict w/ Oracle's current stance). I'm definitely looking towards OSCon and other conferences now to make up for not exactly being welcome per se in the Oracle JavaOne conference / world. Especially a little bummed because I'm releasing my work in question as open source imminently. Here is to the open source Java future and let's keep the light lit and burning strong.
ReplyDeleteWe'd love for somebody from Google to come and speak at Open CF Summit from Feb. 21-23 2011 in Garland (Dallas), TX. OpenCF Summit is a community gathering focused exclusively on promoting free and open source software in the CFML community. While we're not anti-anything, we're a place where CFML developers can discuss open source CFML. We now have *two* CFML engines that are open source -- Railo and Open BlueDragon. So CFML is free of the proprietary chains we used to have now. We hope Google can be a part of this new community that is forming. BTW, our website -- http://www.opencfsummit.org/ -- runs on Google App Engine using Open BlueDragon for GAE runtime.
ReplyDeletePretty sure I've seen my last Java One too. Unfortunately, for the last several years all the value has been brought by guests, not by the host. An order of magnitude more so, now. I/O's been consistently stronger, more varied, and far more informative.
ReplyDelete"Oracle’s recent lawsuit against Google and open source"
ReplyDeleteJoshua, this is a loaded statement that deserves more information: when did Oracle file a lawsuit against open source? This is about Java and Android.
I'm sort of divided on this issue.
ReplyDeleteI'm not doubting the least that googles rewritten java-implementation on the android platfom is infringing some of Sun (now Oracle)s patents.
On the other hand, every single sane person who know enough about computers to tell a screen and a keyboard apart, knows that the U.S patent office, when it comes to software patents, is (at least mostly) a bunch of stupid degenerates who doesnt know an alt-key from the Ctrl-one - and these are issuing LEGALY BINDING software PATENTS. Without having ANY CLUE at ALL, about what they are doing. Therer are just so many examples to this, I wouldn't even know where to START. Let alone finish...
God, I wish they all dropped dead, along with the corrupt, non-working (never worked at all in any part of history) common law system, and then finally there might be some progress in the world. Well, on can dream...
What about future of all Engineers that work with Java on Google products? what about Companies that invested in this area, and what about GWT is that affected with this too.
ReplyDeleteJust Asking :(
@Josh
ReplyDeleteAny chance for a Puzzlers direct to YouTube if you had one prepared, just when JavaOne is going. Would be fun to see the numbers J1 presentations vs Puzzlers on YouTube.
Was it cancelled by Oracle, because they won't let Google talk there, or by Google, because they refuse to talk there (because of the Android lawsuit)? "...we won't be able to present at JavaOne" is embarrassingly fuzzy.
ReplyDeleteSeeing (supposedly free and open!) technology and top technologists vs. patents, politics & lawyers intertwined this way is quite sad. Getting polarized - "battle of titans" - is a sure way to damage all the parties, and it doesn't really make Google look much better than Oracle.
JavaOne without Josh Bloch. But hey, Iron Man will be there, right? ;D
ReplyDeleteVery dissapointing...
ReplyDeleteVery sad.
ReplyDeleteDue to Oracle's shenanigans,our company has dropped JBoss for the next project.Unfortunately, options provided by Oracle is just too expensive. The platform will now be .Net+mssql.
ReplyDeleteI know perfectly well that Dalvik VM and JBoss AS is apple/orange situation. But no one wants to start a project with a litigious behemoth potentially screwing things up in the middle of development.
Wake up Python!
ReplyDeleteLarry Ellison better cut his yacht trip short! This is a PR disaster! You piss off the people that make IT decisions and the next thing you know they make that move to Sequel a year earlier...
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame... Oracle continuing to make mistakes :(
ReplyDeletereally it is very sad...!
ReplyDeleteI am dreaming to be a Java Developer for the whole of ma life,,,
such decision by oracle is really shameful for Oracle itself.
Sad to see that two giants making money over OSS innovations, battling in courts for stupid "patents"... who the help was the creator of this stupid term, "patent" ?
ReplyDeletePython? Who uses Python... :O
ReplyDeletePersonally I think Java will be just fine. Java 7 will hopefully help things along.
"Oracle’s recent lawsuit against Google and open source"
You might want change that sentence. They are not targeting open source...
crybabies... oracle is not suing open source, it's suing google, a company that tried to leapfrog it's licensing responsibilities... and now, like all bad losers, is retaliating in the most childish way possible.
ReplyDeleteAs said earlier, good riddance.
Oracle is spoiling java
ReplyDeleteOracle is the next SCO helping m$ . What oracle is doing is hurting all developers and people may decide switch platform. What makes java strong is open source contribution. Oracle 11 g is the best database but incase of java I haven't seen much from oracle, BEA has contributed a lot. Btw Paul Allen is suing internet lol and all major companies like apple , Google but not m$ is there a trend here.
ReplyDeleteGood thing there is a clear path into the future:
ReplyDeleteOld <-> New
SQL <-> NoSQL
Java <-> Scala and Clojure
SOAP <-> REST
Hotspot <-> Dalvik
Closed <-> Open
Oracle <-> Google
(Ok, there may be some wishful thinking here.)
More presenters should follow your lead.
ReplyDelete"Oracle’s recent lawsuit against Google and open source"
ReplyDeleteHow is java open source?
Nice ^_^
ReplyDeleteOracle sucks.
About the "lawsuit against open source" part... Oracle is claiming patent infringement on (among other) parts of the platform that come from the Apache Harmony project.
ReplyDeleteThat means, if Android is infringing then the ASF and by extension "the open source community" are also infringing.
Josh,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "made it impossible for us to freely share our thoughts about the future of Java and open source generally."
What about your Puzzlers talk? You don't talk about the "future of Java" and "open source" in that talk.
You're a rock star, you have to show up! Heck, I bought "Java Puzzlers" after hearing you speak at Java One some years ago. Take a week of vacation and head over to Java One. I finally got my company to send me across country for the conference this year, just hop in your car and drive up 101 for a few days :)
Paul
I have always loved Google! Oracle can kiss my ass! Google has said it beautifully: they set up for open source, learn from the community, we learn from them! I hope Oracle flies in the face!
ReplyDeleteI will NOT buy or recommend Oracle products until they earn my trust again.
ReplyDeleteFor now, Oracle sucks!
I suggest people read John Martellaro's article at http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/exploring_oracles_lawsuit_against_google/ for an analysis of why Google is hardly innocent in this matter, and Oracle isn't destroying Java by suing Google.
ReplyDeleteAs for skipping out on JavaOne, Google is playing the role of Big Baby. The Google presentations that would have been affected have little to do with any of this:
(http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS418227871620100828)
"A quick look at the JavaOne conference schedule reveals some sessions that were to be conducted by Google, including one entitled "Cloud Cover: Testing Techniques for Google App Engine," presented by Google software engineer Max Ross. Google also was to participate in a panel session entitled "Taking Java to the Sky: Cloud Computing 2010 Expert Panel," as well as another session, "High-Performance Java Servers at Google," featuring Google software engineer Dhanji Prasanna.
"Another session, "GUI Animation Rules," was set to be presented by Google UI toolkit engineers Chet Haase and Romain Guy. Google also was scheduled to conduct a session called "Weaving a Tangled Web: Threading Best Practices at Google." It was to feature Google Senior Software Engineer Jeremy Manson."
I hardly see why these presentations would be soured by this lawsuit. Grow up Google.
This is all a PR move by Google to attempt to gain sympathy from the developer community by creating a rift. Let's face it, Google ceased not being evil a long time ago, so such tactics will not play out as I suspect Google brass hope they will. Instead they'll start to look more and more like Microsoft did when they were rightfully sued by Sun in Java's early days, and also didn't show up at JavaOne, and we should all be glad as Java developers that Sun did so to keep the language from fragmenting.
You can't trust The Oracle she only tells you what you need to hear.
ReplyDeleteWe moved all platforms to PostgreSQL and it is so much better than Oracle. I thought it would take a long time and be complicated and database would be slow but WOW! MySql is for wimps and Java has been so buggy for so many years I can't understand anyone using it at all. Perl -> Python is rock solid stable.
This lawsuit is frivolous because, by there own statement that thousands of developers use Java. It defies logic that they even bothered to file the suit. This brakes the confidence of thousands of developers, and they should break bonds with Java. I have uninstalled all sun product from our production line servers no more VirtualBox Sad I liked that one but VMware will do the trick. I never have liked Java in my estimation it is the biggest piece of shiet Language. Perl/Python Smokes it and C++ Rules it. Why people like it is just beyond me. Try Delphi if you want some programming power.
Oracle isn't "killing" Java. They are stealing ALL of it for themselves and forcing others to abandon it. It is typical of how proprietary software houses now "compete" against others, thanks to a corrupt Congress and USTPO.
ReplyDeleteLOTS of tools depend upon Java.
Oracle now controls Java's compatibility testing. They own parts of OpenOffice.
They own the best parts of MySQL.
They own BerkeleyDB.
All of the GPL portion of these tools will have to be forked and the non-GPL portions reverse engineered (if it is legally possible), setting back their usefulness a few months to a few years or more. Plus, Oracle will probably ring them with easily obtained "IP" patents to inhibit FOSS coders developing them to the point that they could be come competitive again against proprietary versions.
Oracle has already made the MS Office OOo plugin require a $90 license, minimum 100 licenses, or $9,000. That plugin will cease to exist in MS Office environments, which will hurt OpenOffice on Windows. Will Office users switch to OpenOffice? I doubt it. Most will want to maximize their RIO. While some may chose to install the free OpenOffice on Windows to avoid paying for Microsoft Office, those who own Office won't.
Oracle owns APEX, their "cloud" web based app development tool. Even if it is a piece of trash, it is integrated into Oracle's DBs and many Oracle DB users will thoughtlessly adopt it and soon become unable to extract their apps from it, requiring they continue to use it or incur the expense of moving their apps to a better tool, one with lower license fees (Apex is "free" but Oracle is FAR from it), and fewer strings holding them down. Incorporating proprietary API into an app is a surefire way to get one's self locked into that vendor's licen$e upgrade treadmill.
If the Linux-SCO lawsuit is any guide, the Oracle-Google lawsuit will take 5 to 10 years to settle, and the outcome will depend almost entirely on which side can convince jury members that the other side is wrong. The looser can appeal.
Since Java is not critical to Linux and FOSS, and may not be critical to Google, I suspect that regardless of the outcome of this lawsuit there a LOT of people already making moves to switch to another glue, be it Python, Ruby, or what ever. Anything that doesn't have proprietary entanglements.
Larry Ellison is evil. He is a greedy plutocrat who will destroy the openness of Java. At least Python is not under his thumb.
ReplyDeleteThis is warning to everyone get out while you still can stop using OOO Java MySql VirtualBox ZFS backup Solaris OpenSolairs NextaOS and NextaStorage and Of Course Oracle Any thing that Oracle owns stop using it. Oh and yes Linux will take a big hit with this because OOO was the best thing it had going for it now made useless by the corp hogs. They just make crap out a lot of great software.
ReplyDeleteI can't help but think that this is all for the better in the end, because now we'll see what Google can actually do when it comes to programming language and framework design... and I have no doubts that it will be way better than Java ever was or will be.
ReplyDeleteSure int19h, "Go" for it.
ReplyDeleteI think Java will be around far longer than people here suggest, and I don't see this battle having an impact except for development on Android. I also think IBM will have a little to say about Java's future as well.
Overall, We feel like suing by Oracle is a good move. Voice by 'Daniel Kirkdorffer' in this thread is worth noting. Though not that hard, We support Oracle's move towards what it is doing.
ReplyDeleteI sometime back thought and blogged like this
@mathsadist's comment in this thread looks like the first step in google's hidden step in bringing python to life through killing java.
We always felt like Google wished to kill Java by introducing rapid response cycles through python and a heavyweight Java implementation in GAE. But businesswise, this company did well to make sure their stakeholders and shareholders feel safer. ( Ofcourse, that crash showed google the 340$ too but. ) ofcourse, we also agree this company faces stiffer competition than anything in the web. To do business as well as do 'stuff', We wished that google offer python implementation of Oracle and open source it off it slowly. That could have calmed Oracle down a bit because of the database share that uses its support.
This looks a good fight (marshal art with jet lee and bruce lee), and I wished to see this real movie.
Google, I'm proud of you, to me you're standing up for the rights of Open Source software and the Open Source Community. Oracle has made some poor decisions which affects many many people, not just those in the Open Source area. I stand behind your decision not to go.
ReplyDeleteThanks,
An Avid Open Source User
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletegoogle open source software tools to make profits, there is no return to the open source community any valuable davlink, really open source?
ReplyDeletegoogle will have to split the java and linux kernel it? Do not be evil
Firts year with Oracle... Oracle sucks!
ReplyDeleteOracle - "an utterance, often 'ambiguous or obscure', given by a priest or priestess at a shrine as the response of a god to an inquiry."
ReplyDeleteSo, Oracle, I ask yee oh wise and ambiguous one, why has thou procured an open source company.
Answer: Nothing in life is free. Open Source is a cancer that breaks this cardinal rule. The devil must be paid and we are his enforcer.
TheWitness
what jcp ?
ReplyDeleteReally sad..
ReplyDeletesee a lot of trolls from M$ here thanks Oracle
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"recent lawsuit against Google and open source has made it impossible for us to freely share our thoughts"
ReplyDeleteIt is a lawsuit against you, not against open source. And the only reason it made it imposible for you to talk is because you are busy crying like a baby.
Oracle has always been shit...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteoracle is a real technology company, google ads, but the use of technology to achieve profitability clown.
ReplyDeleteShift to Rails 3. Hassle free crisp development. RIP Java
ReplyDeleteThis is why I always wished that Android is developed in C++.
ReplyDeleteAs a recent convert from the MS Dev Worl, it took the activities of Google, i.e. Android, App Engine , GWT,.. to get me interested in Java...hmmm... did I make the right move?
ReplyDeleteORACLE == SHIT..
ReplyDeleteenough of Oracle, whats Google plan for developers, will Google create new language for us (without Oracle nonsense)?
fuck java ! Android,App Engine,GWT developed in C++,C and assembly is great..open source?
ReplyDeleteWell. How about speaking on a not-organized-by-Oracle conference like Devoxx or NLJUG's JFall?
ReplyDeletewhy account was disabled
ReplyDeleteToday when i login my account of android market.I found the page redirect to signup page.And my apps cann't be found in the client of android market.I give money to sign up the account.Should i get any notice about that?Should i get email about that?If i do something wrong,please let me know,i will fix it.
GOOGLE != SHIT..?
ReplyDeletethis is nice post.thanks for the post. i like this post. i am very impressed with your lovely post.
ReplyDeletehome business
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIF this is the attitude from Oracle, I look forward to see the new A# or G# language from Google. They should take the best ideas from Java and the best from Microsoft.NET (where much was stolen from Java anyways) and combine it into a new well-formed language that is very compatible with every Google service... (ofcause)
ReplyDeleteThen release a great SQL-database (not MySQL, not Oracle, not SQL-server) that is great for Cloud-based applications but also single site (department/organisationwise) applications.
Could even let it work as a Google service in Google Apps as a "free version" - domain specific.
Then perhaps develop a better studio-system as great as VisualStudio.Net with 100% integration to write anything from .NET to JAVA and ofcause the new Google language in same environment (Go# ?? = Go Sharp?)... make it free as a "light edition" and full edition should be like $10 pr. year or the like, or make it possible to registrate as developer for a small fee and then gain access to the Google Marketplace.
Then I would call it: BYE SUN, BYE MICROSOFT, BYE ORACLE... enough of all these F**KING PATENTS you are F**KING up the future with all your lawsuits!
Thats my 10 cents...
:o)
I am worried about this. I have bet my company on Java and open source. I am not at all pleased by this. I am worried this might be the start of the end for Java.
ReplyDeleteOracle is killing Open Source Java and the ecosystem, that one was for sure, we could sense it since last year.
ReplyDeleteAlso Java development is stagnate, It will pass more than 5 years to have a Java7 jsr!. The JCP is dead, I think Java as a tech and ecosystem it will begin to decline after all this BS.
What Google could do to Dalvik VM, Displace Java and all Java tools, Choose Javascript, Python or Google Go over Dalvik vm as a language of choice and show to Oracle that Dalvik VM != JVM in court.
Or an alternative is improve the NDK of Android and let developers program android in C and C++, Anyway apple Iphone they use C and Object-C all is native development.
The next 4 official Google languages I guess will be: C++, Python, GO and Javascript.
Me personally Im going back to C++ and use Python and Javascript, If Google Go gets more love and mature, for sure I will include it on my toolbox.
RIP Java, JavaOne, Sun and Oracle f**k!.
Passive aggressive google
ReplyDeleteif(ORACLE == SHIT){
ReplyDeleteGOOGlE!=SHIT;
}else{
while(ORACLE==SHIT)
ALLSHIT++;
}
why account was disabled
Today when i login my account of android market.I found the page redirect to signup page.And my apps cann't be found in the client of android market.I give money to sign up the account.Should i get any notice about that?Should i get email about that?If i do something wrong,please let me know,i will fix it.
why account was disabled
ReplyDeleteToday when i login my account of android market.I found the page redirect to signup page.And my apps cann't be found in the client of android market.I give $25 money to sign up the account.Should i get any notice about that?Should i get email about that?If i do something wrong,please let me know,i will fix it.
Oracle is "a bag of pain"
ReplyDeletesad. . .:( :(
ReplyDeleteoracle is crap :(
ReplyDeleteVery disappointed at Oracle
ReplyDeleteI have always liked Google, but Google do this very badly.
ReplyDeleteWould like to split Java, also every time What if the Java virtual machine is not compatible, Java also how to do Write once, run anywhere?
Oracle's right on this issue, being taken advantage of dry matter, Sun has become history.
Google has the ability to do with Java, or put into the virtual machine, and we all compatible, IBM, HP and Sun's JVM is compatible, head of long horn on your Google different?
Really trustworthy blog. Please keep updating with great posts like this one. I have booked marked your site and am about to email it
ReplyDeleteto a few friends of mine that I know would enjoy reading..
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Do the right thing with the JVM! Google, be compatible!
ReplyDeleteWow, that sucks! Meeting you was one of the things I was most looking forward to about attending my first JavaOne.
ReplyDeleteYes, I also think that Google needs to maintain its own language, not proprietary Java but maybe Python - very much people love it and it's free and open source
ReplyDeleteoracle lawsuit = scum
ReplyDeleteGood for you guys.
Daniel Kirkdorffer
ReplyDeleteOh, so because Google did something that may be wrong, you think that somebody should punish them even if that party also is not the rightful heir of the money?
You my friend are very naive. Oracle does not deserve one red cent of that money. They did not develop Java. They had nothing to to with the idea. They are Johny come lately, a thief in the night if you will.
I don't give a cr** if Google did something that might have been in violation of the patent. It was done before Oracle owned it and therefore should have been pursued to the fullest extent by Sun at the time, since Sun did not Oracle needs to sit on it. That is why grandfather clauses are written into laws.
I am telling you that if the court does not laugh at Oracle and throw this out of court, I will be laughing and doing it for them. I will no longer recommend OpenOffice to ANYONE. I will not purchase a product form Oracle and I will not work for a company that uses ANY of Oracle's products.
So they may win a short round, but in the end I hope Oracle faces the wrath of MILLIONS of users like me.
As to the legality of what Google did, a complete moot point. I could care less what your reasoning is. Oracle is wrong.
Google is actually not really doing Java a favour here. First by omitting Javas principle of binary compatibility - next by creating uncertainty in the community!
ReplyDeleteA bit dissapointed by Google - even more so than Oracle.
no Java -- go Google
ReplyDeletehttp://mashable.com/2009/11/10/go-google-language/
Lets give raise to new language "Go Google". high performance language